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Armybarmy Evangelism Interview
(compilation,
2026)
Why do we seem to struggle with this basic
part of who we are as an Army today?
Where is our “soul-winning” zeal?
SEC- an Indian (country of India)
reporting The Army's 19th century invasion noted:
"Never for a moment (do they) lay aside
their consciousness that they are in the immediate presence of
the Deity. They
never quit it.
They are as close to His feet while singing a song, beating a
drum, or talking to a crowd, as when they prostrate in prayer"
(quoted in The Sacraments, A SALVATIONIST VIEWPOINT (1960)
p76).
This kind of intimacy with Jesus is a
byproduct of intense holiness that evades some of us, even
those who are curious or interested in it.
For the rest of us who come along and go with the flow,
that report is almost like it’s written in a foreign language!
This kind of intimacy with Jesus –
never leaving His immediate presence – means that we’ll be
elbow-to-elbow with people who need Him.
And His overflowing love saturates us as well as those
we engage in His name.
What are your words of advice as we
ourselves are tempted to think: “Does God really mean to send
people to hell?”
SEC- No.
The history of humanity is the story, over-and-over
again, of God going to extreme lengths to reconcile people to
Himself. 2 Samuel
14:14 puts it this way: “Like water spilled on the ground,
which cannot be recovered, so we must die. But that is not
what God desires; rather, He devises ways so that a banished
person does not remain banished from Him.”
God provides the law for His people, He sends prophets
throughout the Old Testament, He comes as the Lord Jesus
Christ to reunite us with Himself.
Jesus died on the cross and then rose again on the
third day, conquering sin and death, defeating the devil, all
to remove every impediment that threatens to keep us from
enjoying His immediate presence forever.
What can you say to us today that, rather
than guilting us (although perhaps that wouldn’t be so bad),
can inspire us to be more effective soul-winners?
SEC- ‘Holiness is the solution to every
problem’. So, I
urge you to press in to Jesus, to seek His face and His heart,
to, as I suggested earlier that HE DOES, remove every
impediment that might keep you from experiencing all of His
love, all of Holy Spirit’s filling in you.
What are those impediments?
Mine are probably different than yours, but if you
start with the Salvo test for self-examination in the Orders
and Regulations for Soldiers, asking God for the answers to a
bunch of revealing questions about yourself, you’ll quickly
sort that out. And
then, having repented and dedicated your whole life to His
reign, claim His promise of filling and sanctification.
We can teach the importance of winning souls
in our congregations and even live it out in our lives, but
how do we get the naysayers (they say they are Christians) to
come on board and share our passion for winning souls for
Jesus?
SEC- maybe press holiness; invite them
to come along…
“The Bible is powerful” and yet, we are
reminded that many Christians do not read their Bibles and
only open them on Sunday at church. We teach the importance of
reading Scripture, but how do we pass our passion for reading
scriptures to the Christians in our congregation? We
understand that the ‘Sword’ will equip us to take a stand and
“show the way to straying souls” but how do we encourage our
Christian friends to have this same passion?
SEC- we also point out that the sword
of the Spirit is understood to be prophetic words.
But on reading Scripture… really, this is a byproduct
of discipling.
Discipling is a process of assimilating
our lives to the Kingdom of God and assimilating Jesus into
our lives. Assimilation includes ‘absorbing’ and ‘integrating’
Jesus into our priorities and schedules and identities and,
over time, coming to ‘resemble’ more closely the Lord Jesus
Christ. (quotation words are derived from dictionary
definitions of various forms of the word assimilate).
We’re all meant to be advancing the
great commission (making disciples of all nations) and
important disciplines such as reading the Bible and listening
to God are probably best inculcated within the discipling
process.
“I’m just not cut out to be a soul-winner”?
This phrase bothers me greatly because each of us is
called to share the love of Jesus and be a testimony of His
grace in our lives. We can teach and preach the importance of
winning souls and many do not ‘get it’. What would be your
response to people who do not understand the importance of
winning souls for Jesus?
SEC- Here are eight reasons Bill Bright
gives us that Jesus wants us to witness:
First,
as you witness, you bring glory to God. Jesus says in John
15:8, "By this My Father is glorified, that you bear much
fruit; so you will be My disciples."
Second,
the love of Christ compels us to share our faith. In Paul's
words, "The love of Christ constrains us." If you have
experienced the love of the Lord Jesus, you will also want to
introduce Him to others.
Amen!
Who doesn’t?
Well, actually, if you don’t want to, does that mean
you haven’t experienced the love of Christ?
Short answer?
Yes.
Longer answer?
Some people want to but don’t do it.
Why? They
feel sheepish, are shy, don’t want to offend, feel like maybe
they lack the knowledge to defend the Gospel (should they bump
into a particularly curious or obstinate person), feel like
someone else would do it much better, embrace a bad theology,
etc. (there are all kinds of reasons why Christians who WANT
to evangelise DON’T evangelise).
Longest answer?
Some ‘Christian’ religionists – maybe even some in your
corps (!) don’t want to because they haven’t experienced the
love of Christ.
They grew up in The Army (or substitute your church of
heritage). They
went through Sunday School, jumped through all the
denominational hoops, and are firmly fixed as part of the
‘establishment’ (for us, maybe they run the tech or sit on the
corps council or play in the band or sing in the songster
or…). They are
consistent and supportive and dependable.
They show up on Sunday mornings; they shovel the
parking lot; they participate in Self Denial; they check the
boxes. But they
haven’t experienced the love of Christ.
They aren’t saved.
And so there is NO SURPRISE that they don’t want to
evangelise others.
Evangelise those people.
(If you’ve experienced the love of Christ)
Third,
sharing your faith is a direct command from Jesus Christ. He
says, "Follow Me, and I will make you fishers of men." And,
"You did not choose Me, but I chose you to go and bear fruit -
fruit that will last."
Fourth,
people without Christ are lost. Jesus says, "I am the way and
the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except
through Me." The Word of God declares emphatically, "Salvation
is found in no one else, for there is no other name under
heaven given to men by which we must be saved."
Fifth,
God wants you to witness because of the benefits He offers to
those who receive Christ. When you introduce others to Christ,
they become children of God; their bodies become temples of
God; all their sins are forgiven - past, present and future!
They begin to experience the peace and love of God; they
receive God's direction and purpose for their lives; they
experience the power of God to change their lives; and they
have assurance of eternal life.
Sixth,
God wants you to witness because of the benefits to those who
witness. Witnessing stimulates your spiritual growth.
Witnessing leads you to pray and to study God's Word and
encourages you to depend on Christ. As you witness in the
power of the Holy Spirit, you sow love and joy and peace.
According to the law for sowing and reaping, you always
harvest what you sow and even more. For example, if you sow
love, you will harvest love. If you sow joy, you will reap
joy. If you sow peace, you will reap peace. And always, the
harvest is greater than the seed sown.
Seventh,
God wants you to witness to experience the tremendous
privilege and honor of representing Jesus to the world. In his
SECond letter to the Corinthians, Paul wrote, "We are Christ's
ambassadors. God is using us to speak to you. We beg you, as
though Christ Himself were here pleading with you, receive the
love He offers you - be reconciled to God." Most people
consider it a high honor to serve as an ambassador for the
head of their country - the president or king - but as a
believer in Christ, you are an ambassador for the King of
kings and the Lord of lords!
Eighth,
God wants you to witness because the Holy Spirit has been
given to provide the power for you to do so. Jesus says, "You
will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you; and you
will be My witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and
Samaria, and to the ends of the earth." To fail to witness for
Christ is to deny the Holy Spirit His right to empower and to
use you to introduce others to our Savior.
We hear people say they are undoubtedly
saved and have been for years, but there has been no change in
their spiritual growth. However, scripture tells in 2 Peter
3:18 [‘grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord’] that we
must grow and mature in the faith. Are we not teaching this
enough? How do we encourage others to be both hearers and
doers of God’s will?
SEC- teaching is enough?
Probably not.
How to encourage others to be both hearers and doers?
Maybe schedule the priorities.
So, for example, in training college there are three
foci: spiritual, field, and education.
Each should be roughly a third of your time and effort.
If you schedule more of one than the others, then you
tend to get better in that area at the detriment of the
others. Similarly,
in your corps – if you schedule a lot of ‘hearer’ activity and
very little ‘doing’ activity, then you tend to get strong in
the ‘hearer’ parts.
Sincerity is of utmost importance. I am
saddened when I hear others who do not profess to be
Christians say, “You will never catch me at that church while
so and so is there. They live a double-standard life. On
Sunday, they are good, but the remainder of the week they act
worst than I do.” “A ‘sin and confess’ lifestyle is a poor
advertisement for Christianity; all it tells the spectators is
that the defeated Christian life is not for them.” What has
happened to us as a denomination that we are slowly dying, and
many want nothing to do with the Army because of the
Christians that are there?
SEC- what has happened?
We forgot who we are.
We are a revolutionary movement of covenanted warriors
exercising holy passion to win the world for Jesus.
But we forgot that. Holiness and covenant are our two
key distinctives.
But we forgot that.
When a ‘movement’ isn’t moving, a lot of the
accoutrements no longer make any sense.
The Salvation Army is the fist of the body of Christ.
But a fist only makes sense if you’re ready to fight.
If you walk around with your fists clenched but don’t
confront evil, you just get all pent up and look silly.
And that’s kind of what we might look like at some
times and in some places with our vocabulary and our outfits
and our music if we’re not confronting evil.
You share specified scripture with a person,
have a deep conversation surrounding their lives, yet, they
continue to say, “I am not a sinner, and I am as good as the
people who wear the ‘suit’? I am at a loss here. How would you
respond to this person?
SEC- Maybe try the Good Test? (the 10
commandments v. their worthiness for heaven)
What do you make of how the seeds fall on
different types of soils? God doesn’t just send the seed onto
the good soil. He seems not to be as focused on success in his
seed throwing. Should we assume that this is because we don’t
know another person’s heart and can’t guess where God will do
a might thing in a life? Is that why we go for the worst,
because often people don’t get to where that person might be
and they might just spring up?
SEC- I heard Commissioner Ed Read teach
that in that parable two thirds of the converts fell away –
only those that landed on good soil bore fruit.
Why go for the worst?
Right, well two things: there are hundreds of millions
of people who haven’t heard the Gospel clearly; and not
everyone has an evangelizing Christian friend.
So, we fill in the gaps.
And a lot of those gaps are amongst the most
marginalized. On
page 81, I say:
“High Risk conversions. Because of
where Salvationists dare to evangelize, many of our converts
are considered ‘high risk conversions’, our evangelists being
compared by management guru Peter Drucker to ‘venture
capitalists’.
“Do you get it? This convert is not a
friend, not in a steady social position in life, not secure
and sober, nor connected with healthy relationships, etc. and
these salvo venture capitalists – people who invest a lot of
resource – energy, time, heart, money – at some high-risk
investment (the lives of hurting and broken people) with
potential a gigantic pay-off (and, on the flipside,
potentially a loss of the investment – thus the ‘high risk’
bit).”
If the Holy Spirit is drawing people to
Christ and convicting of sin, what is an appropriate ratio of
music to preaching at an open air? Are their guidelines within
the modern context for this practice? What happens if one
person wants to talk but that would cause the rest of your
crowd to dwindle?
SEC- ”Wouldn’t it be neat if we could
organize so that both music and preaching are happening
simultaneously?”
That music is playing, attracting and holding the attention of
people and that evangelists are working the gathered crowd,
evangelizing individuals during the music?
I don’t know of modern guidelines on this practice.
”What happens if one…? ”
Inside the hall, when this happens during the testimony
period, typically the band plays them down.
This might work outdoors as well!
What is more effective, one effective
soul-winning Christian’s personal evangelistic efforts, or
their investment of that time in the nominal Christians in
hopes of getting them to be multiplying Christians multiplying
Christians? As a followup, how much time should an officer
spend evangelizing those who have never heard, and how much
should they be equipping the saints (which may be nominal) to
ministry?
SEC- Tough call, but if you have to
choose, maybe invest in the nominal Christians, discipling
them. Once that is
either accepted or rejected, evangelism will come into play
(either because in the context of discipling you will be
evangelizing with your disciple[s] OR because you lack
disciples and so you need to evangelise to find some more).
As far as ‘how much time’, I suspect it depends on
individuals and seasons and contexts, but it’s crucial to be
engaged in both.
Are all Christians not actually
sin-and-confess Christians? We may not sin and confess on the
more obvious sins, but we are constantly being given new
places revealed through conviction that we need to work on.
Perhaps some who feel victory enough to say they don’t need to
confess any more simply don’t hate their sin enough or
consider themselves having died to even the hint of bitterness
or rudeness they can easily overlook having given up their
pornography addiction or the sloth they ignore as they
remember yesterday’s victory over anger.
SEC- the way we used the term ‘sin and
confess’, then not all Christians are.
Those experiencing holiness lack what Wesley calls ‘sin
properly so called’ (voluntary transgression of a known law of
God). Summing up
your description, Booth affirms that our “conSECration must
keep pace with God’s revelation.”
Your point about potential superficial smugness is
pertinent, though.
By definition of terms, however, that doesn’t fit the
exception of holy people.
Do you come prepared for answers from those
who may have studied to discredit your faith or gospel
presentation, or do you try to focus the conversation instead
on their lack of peace and trusting that there is still a
God-shaped hole beneath their rhetoric in their heart?
SEC- I try to focus the conversation on
their lack of peace and also aim to come prepared to answer
complaints. These
days, most of my apologetics has been limited to Muslim
claims.
Is there a particular Gospel that is
favoured to use to instead of various scriptures?
SEC- I don’t have a favourite
evangelism Gospel to use.
I incline towards Mark 1 and John 1/3 in practice.
What can we do to make the scriptures have
validity to those who don’t believe? If someone is a
non-believer, they probably don’t believe in the validity of
scriptures so using them would not strengthen the arguments
being made.
SEC- ”what to do to make scriptures
have validity?”
In your scenario they lack validity as
defined as ‘the state of being legally or officially binding
or acceptable.’
But they have validity by the primary definition of the word,
which is, ‘the quality of being logically or factually sound;
soundness or cogency.’
And while this won’t likely win an argument, speaking
God’s word into people’s lives is powerful.
As Hebrews 4:12 states, “The word of God is alive and
active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates
even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges
the thoughts and attitudes of the heart.”
So these verses are like little truth grenades that
Holy Spirit can pull the pin on at any time while they are
sleeping or eating or working in the following hours…
Is the Good Test really a good tool to use
for salvation? Wouldn’t this isolate the non-believers more by
feeling judgement from Christians for their sins?
SEC- it is more like a mirror held up
for them to see if they really are not sinners (the context in
which this approach was suggested).
They themselves agree to the moral standard – in this
case the ten commandments – and then they themselves answer
the questions, and, finally, they themselves grade themselves
on the test. And
everyone fails.
It’s meant to show that we’ve all sinned and fall short of the
glory of God.
Ideally, we’re living out John 16:7-8
in that we are disciples: “Unless I go away, the Advocate will
not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you. 8 When
He comes, He will prove the world to be in the wrong about sin
and righteousness and judgement.”
General Paul Radar says that “coming to a
saving faith is … only the start and opens the door on a whole
new world of reality and relationships,” but from my
perspective, it is the relationships we build that open the
door to inviting people to a saving faith. Wouldn’t the focus
of building a relationship first have a greater deepening
impact on the relationship and create the safe space essential
to exploring deeper faith dimensions?
SEC- First up, General Rader’s converts
probably reach into six digits and I’m happy to sit at his
feet to learn from his deep wisdom.
And we address this general theme earlier.
But, more practically, for our purpose, I agree that
friendship evangelism is the most effective conventional means
of evangelism. We
highly recommend it.
I’ve evangelized all of my established friends, as I’m
guessing each of you has.
So where does that leave us?
No more evangelizing?
No – at least two approaches: a. make
more friends, and b. evangelise those who aren’t yet our
friends. The only
two problems are these: i. it is often too much friendship and
not enough evangelism, and, related, ii. too many Christians
don’t evangelise their friends, leaving us to have to fill the
gaps.
(might Salvos say that we are not
really friends with someone until we evangelise?
Actually, Commissioner Pindred said, ‘The Founder
believed that ‘no man is truly won to Christ until he is able
to win others to Christ’)
How do we turn conversations towards the
spiritual, especially with those who are not religious,
without turning them away? Do we initiate the spiritual
aspect, or do we wait for the moment when it organically
transpires?
SEC- My family is important to me.
And so in conversation with people, even people I’m
just meeting, family will often come up, naturally.
Jesus is important to me.
And so in conversation with people, even people I’m
just meeting, Jesus will often come up, naturally.
Does talking about my family ‘turn them away’?
No. Does
talking about Jesus turn them away?
No. Do we
initiate? Context
is possibly a factor in some situations.
But I reckon salvos look to ‘initiate the spiritual
aspect’ ‘organically’.
Here are a few quotes from Ralph Moore
on this related to conversing with people we :
“So, what’s to learn? Effective
gospel-sharing begins with life-sharing. It moves into
everyday conversations about prayer answers, etc.; I’ve
noticed that everyday conversations seldom include a closing
argument or a need to seal a deal. You mention a God-thing,
follow the path where it leads and then drop it until your
friend asks a question or shows some other sign of spiritual
hunger.”
“My own gospel-sharing goals are to
un-complicate things, speak normally, refrain from pressing
anything and live in the patient expectation that the Holy
Spirit still draws people to Jesus.”
Rader says, “We may be about much more, but
we must not be about less”.1As unique individuals with various
passions, goals, and ambitions, what words of encouragement
would you give yourself as a young salvationist, early in
ministry, who may look at the world around you and
accidentally stray away from the rightful centre of ministry –
to win souls for Christ?
SEC- Steve, just focus on Jesus.
Don’t get distracted by anything else.
Get sanctified, get discipled.
It is shared, and I quote, “Some of the
approaches proposed and responses to questions presented may
seem too confrontational for a generation that prefers a
gentler more emollient option that avoids the issues of sin,
repentance and judgment… [however,] Many will require multiple
gentle ‘nudges’ of the Spirit and the coming together of
divinely ordered circumstances before they are ready to
respond to the Gospel offer”. When, if ever, do you believe a
gentler approach is appropriate, and what benefit was gained
by not being gentle?
SEC- “When, if ever” (gentle)?
Always – that Holy Spirit fruit!
Here’s the HELPS definition of the word translated
‘gentle’ (that only shows up in Galatians 5:23): “4236
praótēs– properly, temperate, displaying the right blend of
force and reserve (gentleness). 4236 /praótēs ("strength in
gentleness") avoids unnecessary harshness, yet without
compromising or being too slow to use necessary force.
For the believer, 4236 /praótēs
("meekness") is the fruit (product) of the Holy Spirit (Gal
5:23), i.e. it is never something humanly accomplished (or
simply "biological").”
But the answer depends on how we
understand terms.
“What benefit was gained?”
The vast majority of Christians I’ve come across don’t
operationalize ‘gentle’ in evangelism as ‘the right blend of
force and reserve; avoiding unnecessary harshness yet without
compromising or being too slow to use necessary force’.
They operationalize ‘gentle’ instead as nice, defined
as ‘pleasant, agreeable.’
But nice is not what evangelizes biblically.
‘The right blend of force and reserve’ is. (And ‘it is
never something humanly accomplished’).
Gentle is.
So, one benefit is a correction of sorts.
And, as a reminder of our Salvo DNA,
here’s Catherine Booth on the death rattle:
"Oh! people say, you must be very
careful, very judicious. You must not thrust religion down
people's throats. Then, I say, you will never get it down.
What! Am I to wait till an unconverted, godless man wants to
be saved before I try to save him? He will never want to be
saved till the death rattle is in his throat… Why, we might
give the world such a time of it that they would get saved in
very self-defence, if we were only up and doing, and
determined that they should have no peace in their sins. Where
is our zeal for the Lord?"
1 Corinthians 9:19-22 shares that we are to
become like all people so we can possibly save some. How can
we truly become like others in ministry when considering born
privileges, experiential learning and trauma of others, and
the power divide between an officer and their people, to
ensure that we are being sensitive and alert in ministry?
SEC- The only way we can approach this
is entire sanctification.
Paul, who wrote the text to which you allude, also
testified, “I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer
live but Christ lives in me.
The life I live in the body I live by faith in the Son
of God who loved me and gave Himself for me.”
It is shared that “If we TRULY FOLLOW
Christ, we will take time to speak to the one and two… speak
the language of the Scriptures… learn to turn every ordinary
conversation to spiritual themes… [and] consider spiritual
values and His Father’s business above material needs or
possessions”. How do you see financial resources and stability
playing a role in the efforts of winning souls for Christ, if
at all?
SEC- we quote Commissioner Brengle: “He
that is anxious about his dinner, and eager to get to bed at a
reasonable hour, or concerned about his salary, or over
solicitous about his health, or querulous about his reputation
and the respectability and financial condition of his
appointment, or is afraid of weariness and painfulness, and
headache is not a great soul-winner.”
How can we balance love, understanding, and
sincerity as The Salvation Army when it comes to more
controversial subjects within Christian circles – where we are
told to disagree at times with someone’s choices, but still
outpour love? Do you believe that there can be situations
where saying we love someone fully as Christ would, but we
don’t agree with their choice, could be counterintuitive while
attempting to “win their soul”?
SEC- I’m not sure exactly what is being
asked here, but here’s my take:
In Luke 4:30 Jesus, “walked right
through the crowd and went on His way.”
Where did He go?
Capernaum, where they were more receptive.
Maybe in that scenario, love from Jesus
was to walk away.
How can we affectively share our faith with
others who are so closed off to accepting Christ because of
how our culture has shifted in Canada?
SEC- when you get the answer, please
let me know. My
best guess at this point is to demonstrably love people, live
holy lives, and give Jesus space to signal that He exists, He
cares, and He has the power to intervene in their lives.
So, how we’re trying to do this is through our base
network.
We’ve been able to circumvent some
cultural barriers by having people participate in our cell
groups – coming over for lunch, dinner, spending time
together. During
this appointment we have hosted people from various religious
perspectives and languages and countries… making friends.
What are some ways that we can encourage
people in our congregations 2 pursuing soul winning out in the
community who are perhaps intimidated or afraid to reach out
to other people?
SEC- i. holiness; ii. equipping; iii.
accompanying.
What are some methods that we can use to try
and evangelize to people who may be new to Canada who may have
had to flee difficult situations and may have some trauma.
What is a safe way that we might be able to reach out to these
individuals?
SEC- love, listen, learn, befriend,
pray. My phone
contact list has more independents on it than Christians.
And the majority of them are asylum seekers and
refugees or recent immigrants.
I’ve just finished reading a book on this called NO
LONGER STRANGERS: Transforming evangelism with immigrant
communities (which Christianity Today tackles in ‘20 Truths’
with 20 questions, here:
https://www.christianitytoday.com/edstetzer/2021/may/20-truths-no-longer-strangers.html
Do all Salvationists resort to assuming
“everyone we meet needs to get saved until our conversation
and/or observation leads us to infer otherwise”. If one does
not naturally resort to that assumption, how can we get into
this mindset?
SEC- No.
Few do. How
can we? Maybe add
this preparation to daily morning exercises like brushing
teeth, eating breakfast, putting on the full armour of God,
and now asking Holy Spirit to fill us and set up divine
appointments and speak clearly to us and prompt us in every
social interaction to speak His words and show His love…
What does using the “Sword of the Spirit”
look like practically in the day-to-day of an officer?
SEC- different for different people, as
guided by John 5:19 (‘Very truly I tell you, the Son can do
nothing by Himself; He can do only what He sees His Father
doing, because whatever the Father does the Son also does’).
But for some it might mean going off schedule, getting
delayed, being interrupted, checking in on someone you’d not
anticipated engaging, listening / listening / listening.
I know a Salvo who is trying to do only what he senses
God tell him to do.
Based on John 5:19, maybe our prayer
can be, ‘Help us to see what You’re doing and do what we’re
seeing’.
How does one be bold, and emanate “the
complete assurance of Peter and John,” despite their lack of
education/training (and because of the boldness people
listened), instead of coming across rude (in which people will
not listen)?
SEC- I can think of only two answers:
i. Holy Spirit; and ii. if you aren’t filled with Holy Spirit
than you’ll have to rely on a winsome personality or fake one.
Not all of us have or can fake a
winsome personality…
Do you suggest that we have scripture
memorized, a couple verses written down, or Bible references
highlighted in the case we have opportunity to evangelize?
What scriptural tools/verses do you suggest we have ready for
these opportunities so that we are prepared in advance with
the “knowledge of God’s word,” but also ready to share with
others?
SEC- we all memorise Scripture.
You might choose to intentionally memorise verses
around a Gospel presentation.
For example, you might take the verses of The Bridge
diagram off by heart, or The 4 Points, or Honour Restored, and
have them ready.
How do Salvationists make sure that we are
not taking things to the extreme when it comes to divine
appointments with people? And how do Salvationists determine
when those conversations should happen and when they should
not?
SEC- That might be the point.
We’re hyper-Wesleyan Arminians.
We do take things to the extreme.
"We believe in salvation HERE and NOW;
we believe in feeling, knowing, and partaking here on earth of
the leaves of the tree of life, which are for the healing of
the nations... WE WANT IT NOW! Drinking of the river of the
water of life which flows from the throne of God, and being
healed, and changed, and blessed, and filled with the glory of
God, and the peace and purity and power of salvation. WE WANT
IT NOW!” William
Booth
"Can we go too fast, my comrades, in
SAVING SOULS? I will not attempt to answer that question. No
soldier in The Salvation Army would put it. It is an insult to
the Bible - to the teachers of Christianity."
William Booth
Why don’t the miracles that were performed
in Jesus’ day by himself and his disciples happen as
frequently today, mainly in the context of The Salvation Army?
SEC- I don’t know.
Do we rely on things other than Holy Spirit too much?
I’ll stipulate that what you presume is true – less
frequent miracles.
That said, maybe we don’t publicize them when they happen
(because we’re sheepish?)?
Just a fortnight ago in a corps in my division there
was an accident and emergency hospital visit and lots of
prayer and then a result that the medical doctor termed a
‘miracle’.
Hallelujah. We’ve
heard stories in this territory of dead people coming back to
life and less outstanding miracles and healing and
deliverances happening.
Praise God.
We want more, Lord!
We have been told that as pastors we are to
listen and ask questions, how and when it is appropriate to
speak into a person’s life through the Holy Spirits prodding’s
and when are we to stay silent and listen?
SEC- Are you all pastors?
Wow. I know
that Jesus Himself gave the apostles, the prophets, the
evangelists, and the shepherds and teachers (Ephesians 4:11).
I know you read ‘pastor’ there, but the word – ‘poimén’
– occurs 18 times in the New Testament and is translated
‘shepherd’ or ‘shepherds’ 17 times (because the word means
‘shepherd’), and only once ‘pastor’.
And Paul grammatically conflated shepherd and teacher
as one role or function.
So, who amongst the people of God both shepherds and
teaches?
Disciplers. That
democratizes the people of God.
So we’ll typically roll as apostles, prophets,
evangelists, and disciplers.
There’s a long rant to suggest that we needn’t all try
to squeeze into a 20th century paradigm that has inflated one
half of one of four – apostle / prophet / evangelist /
discipler – at the expense of the others.
All of that is a very long way of
getting to the point of saying that all the disciplers in the
corps should be asking and answering that question.
And all disciplers should speak as God prompts and stay
silent as God prompts.
I read this week that Jesus asked 307
questions in Scripture, was asked 183, and answered 3.
There’s a ratio to aim for!
“No Christian will feel the urgency of
soul-winning until s/he has first realized the ugliness of sin
and the true condition of the sinner.” In our ministry units
today, we seem to get so caught up in the administrative
duties, and the day-to-day transactional items that we do not
always fully focus on the goal, “winning souls for Christ”. As
an Army, we seem to have become distracted often from what
truly matters. How do we push reset?
SEC- ‘As a Army’… this is a subtle
temptation to concern ourselves with the institution.
It can take our eyes off of the great commission.
Wherever they deploy you, you are sent to win that
district for Jesus.
Focus on that.
Zero budget your strategy.
Do what enhances the great commission.
That saves those of us having this
conversation committing too much energy and passion in
questions like ‘how do we push the reset?’ (which, admittedly,
are important; it’s just that institutional answers aren’t
within the scope of our appointments)
Being the Salvation Army within the Canada
and Bermuda Territory, why does it seem that the importance of
winning souls so vastly differs from province to province?
Attending and listening to outport community services on the
East Coast of Canada, there is a genuine heartfelt passion or
as Catherine Booth would say, “a burning compassion for souls”
within just about all the Salvation Army churches. While in
many other provinces, the heartfelt passion seems to have
faded. Yes, the Officers may be all in, but the congregation
seems distant to such importance. What has happened? How do we
move a congregation back to its beginnings?
SEC- I don’t know.
I’ve only been appointed in three provinces.
I’m not sure that there are higher first-time seeker of
salvation numbers in outport corps than there are in big
cities in central and western Canada.
I don’t want to confuse noise and dancing and
repetition with great commission advance.
‘What has happened?’
Several things not limited to, but including, the
following;
i. redemption and lift;
ii. the relative ease and affirmation
of counting numbers such as people fed, housed, and clothed as
contrasted with those saved, discipled, and enrolled;
iii. our imitation of successful
churches while slugging our own denominational baggage (it’s a
bad decision strategically shed unique credibility to identify
with / as an entity (‘church’) that is rejected by the
significant majority of the population – the very population
segment we’re trying to reach!
So often, we will hear people within our
congregations say, “I’m not just cut out to certain things
like being a soul winner”. They have become so complacent and
comfortable in their walk with Jesus that they attend church
on a Sunday and nothing else seems to be happening for
spiritual growth. In conversations with non-church attendees,
and non-professing Christians, we hear the comment, “I don’t
need to attend church, I am just as good as those who are
there”. To win souls, we first need to re-visit our spiritual
walk. In working
with those professing Christians who are not demonstrating
commitment or growth spiritually; trying to get the important
message across is not usually received well. How do we win
souls when our Christian professing believers are not growing?
SEC- I encourage you to find the one(s)
who are game and disciple them.
Run with those that will run with you.
I use the Infinitum rule of life (InfinitumLife.com and
the Infinitum app).
How are we to grow and win souls when every
time we think of new ideas of ministry, we are confronted
with, “That will never work here?” We must be willing to
confront the comfortableness that we are in with change,
understanding that change is difficult, and it will raise some
eyes. Are we, as the Salvation Army ready for some pushback,
to grow and win souls to expand the kingdom?
SEC- the upside is that most of us get
commissioned and deployed to appointments with few soldiers.
So, there are fewer possibilities for resistance.
How do we approach evangelism and going for
souls without being aggressive or coming across to people as
being aggressive?
SEC- Catherine Booth’s most famous book
is called Papers on Aggressive Christianity.
It’s a salvo standard.
The much bigger problem is that we’ve neglected that
book and the spirit of the teaching in that book and instead
not evangelized very much and when we did, sometimes employed
a fearful or faith-lacking or lackadaisical or box-ticking
approach in evangelism with concomitant results.
So, no answer is needed to the question since we’ve got
the opposite approaches – combined as ‘not aggressive enough’
- ‘down’.
Is there a danger in going for souls and
soul winning that it can overshadow loving people and make it
impersonal?
SEC- of course.
How do you balance going for souls with
discernment of what to say and how to navigate conversations?
SEC- just as the greatest expression of
love to believers is to disciple them, the greatest expression
of love to unbelievers is to evangelise them.
That balances the approach in conversations in between
when we hear from God.
How do you balance boldness while also
respecting others’ views and beliefs?
SEC- Love.
Caring, listening, being interested.
Boldness isn’t necessarily the same as Bible-thumping
someone or hammering them with apologetic zingers.
Just looking in Acts on boldness here are the
occurrences:
4:29- “Now, Lord, consider their
threats and enable your servants to speak your word with great
boldness.”
4:31- “And they were all filled with
the Holy Spirit and spoke the word of God boldly.”
9:28- “So Saul stayed with them and
moved about freely in Jerusalem, speaking boldly in the name
of the Lord.” “29 He talked and debated with the Hellenistic
Jews, but they tried to kill him.”
13:46- “Then Paul and Barnabas answered
them boldly: ‘We had to speak the word of God to you first.
Since you reject it and do not consider yourselves worthy of
eternal life, we now turn to the Gentiles.” “48 When the
Gentiles heard this, they were glad and honoured the word of
the Lord.”
14:3- “Paul and Barnabas spent
considerable time there, speaking boldly for the Lord.” “4 The
people of the city were divided; some sided with the Jews,
others with the apostles.”
18:26- “He began to speak boldly in the
synagogue.” “When Priscilla and Aquila heard him, they invited
him to their home and explained to him the way of God more
adequately.”
19:8- “Paul entered the synagogue and
spoke boldly there for three months, arguing persuasively
about the kingdom of God.” “9 But some of them became
obstinate; they refused to believe and publicly maligned the
Way. So Paul left them. He took the disciples with him and had
discussions daily.”
28:31- “He proclaimed the kingdom of
God and taught about the Lord Jesus Christ – with all boldness
and without hindrance!” ((Response? That’s the last verse!))
All I’m hearing lately is about the
“challenges” of the current cultural/spiritual climate in
Canada but what I want to know is what you see as the most
exciting opportunities for evangelism in the current culture?
SEC- the ‘all nations’ component of the
great commission is coming to Canada (at least where I live).
We have opportunity to make disciples of all nations I
the comfort of our own homes.
How?
Befriend refugee claimants who are alone, in new language /
culture / system / culture / laws without family or extended
family and friends and familiarity and comfort and job and
home…
You mention the use of the Salvation Army
uniform as an evangelism tool; have you ever experienced the
uniform as detrimental to evangelism?
SEC- possible.
Reflecting, though, it seems like people are more
immediately open to spiritual conversation when I’m in uniform
or clearly representing with a big shield than in other
situations.
a. “I am Saved To Save.”
“That’s what the Ss mean, after all,
and this is the main message of the uniform.”
b. “And S2S actually says a couple of
things:
i. “I’m saved.
The Lord Jesus Christ has by His suffering and death
made an atonement that applies to me through repentance and
faith and the regeneration of the Holy Spirit.
Hallelujah.”
ii. “It also says that I’m here to
save.
“Now, now, don’t get carried away.
We know that only God can save.
But William Booth was borrowing the vocabulary of the
Apostle Paul (1 Corinthians 9 – so that by all means I might
save some) when he made up our slogan.
“The point is, like Paul, I’m going
full out in whatever it takes to save some.
If you need to get saved, then you’re in the right
place when you bump into someone in uniform.”
c. “I’m available." I didn’t make this
one up, either.
But it means that I’m on duty – ‘every hour and every power
for Christ and duty’.”
d. “I know a good local dry cleaner.
If you need any connections that way, I can hook you
up.”
e. “I’m a part of the collective of the
covenanted (Rowan Castle’s term).
That is, two uniformed salvos from different parts of
the world who have never met share the same covenant and thus
have more in common than almost anyone else - and the uniform
confirms it.”
f. “I’m inclined to marginalised
people. I like to
hang out with Jesus and I hear that He likes to hang out with
them…”
g. “I’m not afraid to get dirty.
(polyester is pretty good that way)”
h. “I’m hyper-Wesleyan-Arminian.”
i. “I’m covenanted warrior exercising
holy passion to win the world for Jesus.”
Are there other Salvation Army
“distinctives” that you see as beneficial for evangelism?
SEC- The two SA distinctives are
holiness and covenant.
Both are beneficial for evangelism: holiness as we’re
impeding Holy Spirit much less, and covenant because, as Rob
Dolby used to say, ‘You can’t earn God’s love, but you can
earn God’s trust’ – meaning that, theoretically, God can trust
how we’ll act in different situations and can entrust us with
His delegated authority.
You are adamant that all are called to
evangelism, but also that effective evangelists should not
always be expected to take responsibility for all the
discipling of converts; how do you encourage someone who might
see themselves as a stronger “discipler” than “evangelist” to
find an appropriate balance in their life and growth? Are
there gifts that they have been practicing in discipleship
that could be employed toward evangelism?
SEC- For those who are disciplers,
evangelism will be a key component of their lives in that they
are training up their disciples and modelling for them.
And one of the key things they are training and
modelling is evangelism.
For those who are evangelists,
discipling will be a natural outflow with some of their
converts since they are already in some level of relationship
with them.
When talking about having every interaction
being one ready to share the good news, does this lead to
meaningful long-term discipling relationships?
SEC- Sometimes.
The best man at my wedding got saved in a cold-call
evangelism encounter and got discipled by the guy who
evangelized him.
He’s been used by God over the years to advance the Gospel in
many different ways.
Most of the last 30 or 40 friendships I’ve made have
started this way.
I have had experiences with life-long
Christians who struggle with knowing whether they are saved or
not, how do you encourage someone like that to know that they
are saved and can be used to help others with their salvation?
SEC- Maybe it is most helpful to run
through the Gospel with them and have them respond in the
appropriate way of repentance and faith – even pray a
‘salvation prayer’.
That way, they can know.
I would likely avoid assuring them unless they exercise
repentance and faith.
Then I’d highlight some Scripture (1 John 5:11-13) to
give them assurance.
Have you done prison ministry? Do you find
that people incarcerated are open to hearing about Jesus’
ability to save people? What are the barriers we will expect
to have to fight through?
SEC- I have done it but not in a while.
I have found such people usually much more open about
talking spiritual things, possibly because they are less
likely to put on ‘airs’.
Barriers?
Two barriers (you asked) might be ‘knowing it all’ already
(they have a lot of time to study the Bible) and
self-condemnation.
Bob Ekblad has a few books on this subject, including READING
THE BIBLE WITH THE DAMNED.
Why are most of the bible translations
paraphrases, instead of using more biblically accurate
translations?
SEC- I think that they were mostly
translations leaning toward dynamic equivalents rather than
literal translation.
The references are there so that readers can look them
up in whatever version they prefer.
Also, I don’t bow at the altar of any one translation.
The ‘best’, ‘most literal’ versions go to the dynamic
equivalent often, as well as paraphrases.
For example, John 1:18:
ESV No one has ever seen God; the only
God, who is at the Father's side, He has made him known.
NASB No one has seen God at any time;
God the only Son, who is in the arms of the Father, He has
explained Him.
NRSV No one has ever seen God. It is
God the only Son, who is close to the Father’s heart, who has
made him known.
Transliteration: kolpos Phonetic
Spelling: (kol'-pos) Definition: the bosom
Usage: (a) sing. and plur: bosom;
(sinus) the overhanging fold of the garment used as a pocket,
(b) a bay, gulf.
HELPS Word-studies 2859 kólpos –
properly, the upper part of the chest where a garment
naturally folded to form a "pocket" – called the "bosom," the
position synonymous with intimacy (union).
Do you have a specific way in which you
evangelize to those of other religions? Where they consider
themselves Christian, but their theological beliefs are based
on distorted biblical scripture. What have you found as the
best way to reach them, when they already believe that they
are saved?
SEC- False religions: page 41-42, 50 we
talk about Biblical responses and in endnotes 31 (p162), and
42 (165) an apologetic response.
Muslims are the main religious group I find myself
meeting in evangelism.
I try not to camp out too much on the normal
apologetics (though I use them on occasion, though I blogged a
lengthy apologetics conversation with a Muslim proselytizer on
Ten Things From An Unresolved Real-Life Conversation With A
Religionist).
Instead, I try to focus on Jesus.
And that goes in a general way for cultists, too (which
is your main question).
I try to focus on a friendship with Jesus.
Evangelists are match-makers, trying to introduce our
friend ____ with our friend Jesus.
That takes away the pressure and the confrontation and
the stress. It’s
up to them if they hit if off…
Are there times where you would suggest it
would be either inappropriate or inadequate timing to
evangelize?
SEC- Inappropriate?
Depending on how you understand the word, maybe never.
But probably lots of occasions - maybe most frequently
when the person is not interested…
Inadequate time? Probably.
Bill Bright figured that a long elevator ride was
enough time to run through the four spiritual laws (which he
made up). So I
don’t know what that limit is.
When evangelizing on the street, do you feel
the uniform is best for its recognition and acceptance or has
it become a deterrent? Is brandwear best for this type of
ministry?
SEC- I don’t know.
A lot of brand wear has a one-inch shield over the
heart which from a distance can be easily mistaken for some
OTHER brand or a sports team or a company… That said, I’ve got
hoodies and jackets with foot+ high shields that certainly
identify me.
As a mission that began with evangelism
being a big part of its ministry in reaching souls, why, in
your opinion, have we lost that fire that the Booths
emphasized we needed to have?
SEC- There could be many reasons.
Here are a few possibilities:
i. we didn’t disciple our converts well
enough;
ii. we wandered from teaching holiness;
iii. the historic revival ended and it
became easier to feed / house / rehabilitate people than to
evangelise and disciple them;
iv. we imitated churches and hamstrung
ourselves since we are popularly seen as an alternative to the
negatively perceived church…
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